black talon ballistics

29K views 1 year ago I grabbed some of the infamous Winchester Black Talon 9mm. Hollow Point Ammo. Most completely ignore the second considerationhydrostatic or hydraulic shock. I had the chance to see countless 1,000s of spent rounds in all calibers & brands carried by LEOs. Black Talon ammo was developed by Winchester and became the target of liberal media scrutiny back in the 1990s. This ammo has not been manufactured for many years. Winchester Black Talon.357 Magnum Ballistic - YouTube boxes. Shooting a .357 black talon at some ballistics gel. [1] Armor-piercing handgun ammunition has been banned in the United States since 1986, and unless you had some beforehand, you likely wont be shooting any AP 9x19mm rounds anytime soon. Plus I saw rounds that had been recovered from a number of officer involved shootings. .357 Black Talon - YouTube Black Talon was controversial, and Winchester discontinued sales to the general public in 1993 and ceased manufacture in 2000. Of the ten, only one, Special Agent Manauzzi, did not fire any shots (his firearm was thrown from car in the initial collision), while only one, Special Agent Risner, was able to emerge from the battle without a wound. Think a little bit harder/smarter. Regardless it was a tragic, horrific day in south Florida in particular that day as well as law enforcement in general. He spoke in detail of the Shoot Out to our students. [10] McNeill returned fire with six shots from his revolver, hitting Matix with two rounds in the head and neck. At the end of a nearly five-minute shootout and over 140 rounds fired, five FBI agents were wounded and two (Jerry Dove and Benjamin Grogan) were killed. The FBI has awarded Hornady with a fixed price indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) agreement for its 9mm +P 135-grain Critical Duty ammunition. [8][25], Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Winchester discontinued the Black Talon line completely in 2000. This coating is still widely used on many of Winchester's rifle bullets today.[4]. A common misconception was that it was produced with a black Teflon coating. Some experts even suggest that Teflon-coated bullets were significantly worse when it came to penetrating Kevlar but nonetheless, several states have restrictions in place for the ownership of coated rounds. So, the point is, a shooter in a high stress defensive situation may not hit well, so any hit needs to count. "[19][20] Both the round and the firearm have subsequently been adopted by all branches of the United States Armed Forces, except for the Coast Guard. [14] It is estimated that Platt was shot a fifth time shortly afterwards, this time by Risner. . handgun Ammo black talon | Best handgun Ammunition black talon What is the value of Black Talon ammo? | Glock Talk As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Doves 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING VETERAN JOURNALISM - JOIN SOFREP+ I have ?? This Lubalox coating was to protect the barrel rifling, and did not give the bullet armor-piercing capabilities. Glock 23 Gold dot 165 gr / HST 180 gr / Silver Tips 155 gr A 5 1911 gave the most impressive-looking bullet expansion Ive ever seen. Mostly because they are 25 years old and other companies are reproducing them under different name for as low as $18. It is a very devastating looking wound channel. Yes, 2000 ft per second and they ship the ammunition to your door. Now additional rounds that struck muscle tissue did major tissue destruction and one in the arm shattered the bone and almost severed the arm ending the battle and even that round failed to exit. Here is a standard block with a 44 Magnum Winchester Black Talon displayed next to an expanded bullet shot through ballistics gel Share 0 Share on Facebook +1 +1 on Google Plus Latest News Its specially designed hollow point wont plug while passing through a variety of barriers, and the bullet jacket and core hold together to provide nearly 100 percent weight retention through even the toughest materials. Two high-profile mass shootings in 1993 led to the demise of Winchester Black Talon ammunition. But, more recent, more modern and better designs are now widely available. In fact, for the first two years, Black Talon was on the market it received an award from Shooting Industry magazine for its effective lethality. That said, there are other rounds with armor-piercing attributes that are not covered by the law, such as teflon-coated bullets, or so-called cop-killers. These rounds are covered in a layer of polytetrafluoroethylene, which was initially added to reduce barrel wear. Were either Platt or Matix ex-military? cannot easily destroy. In fact, some sources say that as many as 400 police departments at some point or another carried Black Talon ammunition. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and was shot a fourth time when turning to fire at Hanlon, Dove and Grogan. Thats right, these bullets are infused with pork for an extra deterrent factor of eternal damnation for fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist.. Black Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest. I bought them before they were not so infamous. They actually became friends in the Army. Black Talon exotic weapon stats & perks. I'm the knife nut that everybody is ashamed to know. The round is a traditional hollow point bullet, but with a then-innovative reverse taper (the bullet jacket is thicker at the tip than at the base) and a Lubaloxnot Tefloncoating. Physician Boyd Stevens, the San Francisco Medical Examiner who performed the autopsies, later reported at the 1994 International Wound Ballistics Association's conference in Sacramento that the wound trauma caused by Black Talons was unremarkable and that all victims died due to penetration of a vital structure.[6]. Im a proponent of all munitions that are topped wth Barns bullets. Does anyone have any comments on the Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point versus the XTP? "Cleverness and luck", Evan Thomas and Russell Watson. No one weapon will ever be enough in my mind. Luckily, 10mm handguns were new and not many shooters had them. Some say that SXT stands for the same exact thing. If you are desperate to get your hands on the original Black Talon, you can find it online, but at a jacked up price. was no expansion although you are correct that the body can keep going with a lot of punishment. This is as close to a perfect Comprehensive Readers Digest version, in the 45 words or less format of the complete facts and points of interes as one could ask for! Close range so we can retrieve the bullet. How rare is this 9mm Black Talon? I was given this box by my - Reddit My hat is off to you. Required fields are marked *, Stay up to date with all things RE Factor Tactical with updates sent directly to your inbox, Why The FBI Requested Better Duty Ammunition, Available at Kentucky Gun Company for $31.77/box, Available at Kentucky Gun Company for $31.53/box, Available at Kentucky Gun Company for $34.99/box, Available at Kentucky Gun Company for $30.88/box, REMINGTON AMMO 9mm Golden Saber Bonded BJHP Bonded 124Gr, HORNADY 9mm +P Luger 124 gr FlexLock Critical Duty, FEDERAL AMMO 9mm + P 124Gr HST JHP Premium, HORNADY CRITICAL DUTY 9MM +P 135 GRAIN FLEXLOCK DUTY, https://www.amazon.com/shop/refactortactical, Battle of the Barrels: Faxon vs Ballistic Advantage, Spotting Scope vs Binoculars: Choosing The Right Glass, Faxon Glock 48 Barrels: Are They Worth the Investment? I second and add my own thumbs up to G-Mans comments in praise of this article by Suzanne. It reaches 70 ammo reserve with mods, receives 24 ammo per Heavy or Sword Ammo Finder brick, or 40 per regular brick with the new scavenger artifact mod. In all actuality, it was a special black coating with the purpose of preserving barrel life. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. Buffalo Bore ammunition also loads this solid copper Barnes bullet in some of its calibers. In fact, for the first two years Black Talon was on the market, it received an award from Shooting Industry magazine. Visit our Amazon Influencer Page for more products we recommend:https://www.amazon.com/shop/refactortactical, Your email address will not be published. I listened to a career paramedic say If someone must be shot, shoot them a lot, because the human body can endure a great deal of damage and remain in the fight You sir, have experienced that first hand! Great read, all the correct info in the correct order and on point and subject. Yeah, we cannot divulge that information publically. Black Talon has a black bullet with six serrations at the nose seated on a shiny nickel-plated cartridge. McNeill fired over the hood of Manauzzis car but was wounded by return fire from Platts Ruger Mini-14 rifle. "[N]o injuries have been reported to medical professionals removing the bullets" in "Police use new brand of bullets Surgeon says removal may endanger doctors" by Dan R. Barber. which includes rounds from both semi-autos & wheel guns. I have personally used Black Talon ammo in a 40 Cal Glock and can tell you first hand that it lacks important penetration on impact. [15], Platt fired one round from his Mini-14 at Risner and Orrantias position, wounding Orrantia with shrapnel created by the bullets passage, and two rounds at McNeill. Hollow Point Ammo. It is my new go-to round for home defense. Get the latest Offers, Outdoor News, Stories, and Reviews delivered to your inbox. After all, it is nothing more than slightly modernized Black Talon ammo, but with a market friendly sounding name. Those knowledgeable about guns and ammunition know that a Black Talon isnt any more deadly than other hollow points, just like an AR-15 isnt any more deadly than a Remington Model 700. My love of sharp things extends to all kinds of edged weapons, be they small, large or on a stick. Mireles drew his .357 Magnum revolver, moved parallel to the street and then directly toward Platt and Matix. Teflon-coated bullet - Wikipedia Washington Takes Oppression of Gun Owners to New Lows, Finding a Firearm: My Wifes First Pistol, Throwback Thursday: 5 Long-Slide Pistols I Cant Live Without. Risner and Orrantia, observing from the other side of the street, stated that they did not see Platt leave the car and fire at Mireles. This expansion creates a larger wound channel. Winchester Ammunition has developed a bullet that was specifically designed to perform better than other hollow-point missiles. Wounding effects of the Winchester Black Talon bullet - PubMed Its a Black Talon. I had no idea what he meant, but he sure looked and sounded serious, so I nodded my head, gave my thanks and accepted the gift. points to a box of the Cop Killer bullets that you used. TheFirearmBlog // Winchester got burned by its own marketing hype on Black Talon, when criminal misuse of the product fueled media hysterics over bullets that deploy flesh-ripping claws. The Ranger SXT ammunition sold later by Winchester is very similar to the Black Talon though without the black Lubalox coating on the bullet. Glock 21 Hornady XTP 230 gr +P / Ranger 230 +P. Both were preoccupied with getting Doves gun working and did not detect that Platt was aggressively advancing upon them. Sgt Rivers several months after the event started to do or was requested to speak about that entire event and did so both at the training Academy as well as to different agencies both locally and then nationally over time. Time magazine described the Black Talon as a bullet designed to unsheathe its claws once inside the victims body and tear it to pieces. A surgeon in Houston said Black Talon explode inside a person like a thousand razor blades. The media called it exotic and designed to do greater damage than ordinary ammunition. Many politicians called for an outright ban on Black Talon ammunition. Thats why Federal HST is the duty load of choice for law enforcement officers throughout the world. The companys excellent marketing campaign should be creditedfor putting the round out front and center, garnering more than 1.5 million views on YouTube over just a span of a few days. To keep it fair, we havent included anything too out of the ordinary, and everything listed below can be found for commercial sale. Before that Matix had already served in the Marines, then went Army. FACTORY ORIGINAL WINCHESTER * BLACK TALON * AMMUNITION 45ACP 230gr. Resembling the larger, more heavily armed Terminus-class destroyer, the Gage-class transport traded the destroyer's numerous turbolaser banks for cargo space and troop barracks. At the time, Winchesters Black Talon was one of, if not the most effective hollow point duty round you could buy. Review: Hi-Point JXP 10mm An Overgrown Yeet Canon Thats a Lot of Fun! Black Talon 9mm Caliber Ammunition for sale. - Collectors Firearms Matix was then shot in the right forearm, probably by Grogan. Even a family member of a victim from the New York shooting attempted to sue Olin Corporation for the manufacture, sale and marketing of Winchesters Black Talon ammo. Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm. 0. Despite this, the ammo maker did have avidsupporters until it recently closed its doors. a full box of the original black talon A civilian witness described Platt leaving the car, walking almost 20 feet and firing at Mireles three times at close range. A great Sunday morning read! William Matix: Smith & Wesson Model 3000 12-gauge shotgun, one round #6 shot fired. Introduced officially in 1991, this hollow point round is especially famous for its unique-looking projectile. One round hit McNeill in the neck, causing him to collapse and leaving him paralyzed for several hours. The alleged armor-piercing (AP) notion is urban legend, and was a result of media hyperbole (perhaps confusing "Talon" with the "Teflon" that coated KTW AP bullets[citation needed])rather than test or field data from actual shootings considering the short time it was on the market. I bought a few boxes of what was then called Halo rounds which are now sold under the name Civil Liberty ammunition after Microsoft sued them over copyright issues because of the video game Halo. Gun grabbers jumped at the chance to push their anti-gun agenda. [16][22], Platt attempted to start the Grogan/Dove car. +p+ was definitly the right direction. Grogan and Dove were kneeling alongside the drivers side of their car. 4/12/2023. Expansion in gelatin blocks starts within 1/2-1 of entry and leaves a approx. Anything that we do that appears to be overboard just gives the antis one more bullet to use against US! 357 black talon ammo for sale and auction. As boatloads of testing has displayed, the V-Crown is incredibly accurate and . When a hollow point bullet hits a soft target, it expands to what looks like a flower with petals. All Rights Reserved. If you dont think hollow points are controversial, just talk to someone who doesnt know what they are. Praesidus brings homage to the military watch tradition. [14] The Infamous 9mm Black Talon! - YouTube Black Talon .357 Mag Cartridges - Long Range Hunting Forum All comments are held for moderation and will appear after approval. Several years ago, SIG Sauer started expanding its market share into electro-optics and ammunition. Black Talon | Wookieepedia | Fandom This ammo is packed in the original 20rd. Range Report: How Good Is the Smith and Wesson M&P FPC 9mm Folding Carbine? The Black Talon bullet is referenced in The Mountain Goats album Bleed Out, in the track "First Blood".[21]. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING VETERAN JOURNALISM - JOIN SOFREP+ , PO Box 1077 MURFREESBORO, Tennessee 37133 United States, P.O. I once worked at a large LEO pistol & rifle range for several years. I think for defense most people use the 125 gr jhp or 158, something like that. They have taken your home, your job, your savings, your family, and even your friends from you. The third hit Matix in the face, and fragmented in two, with neither piece causing a serious wound. The most obvious difference from the SXT is that the bonded design, meant to maintain structural integrity through difficult intermediate barriers like auto-glass, largely prevents the sharp petals from peeling away from the lead core and fully protruding into the wound track. The cartridge provided additional ammunition (so to speak) for gun control advocates to rally against civilian gun ownership while other critics focused on the Black Talon name. The Black Talons petals look more like well talons, essentially making the wound channel even wider. Winchester stopped producing the Black Talon round in 2000, and that kind of fed into its mythology and mystique. On internet forums, gun enthusiasts frequently joke that that SXT stands for "Same eXact Thing",[13] though the official branding is Supreme eXpansion Technology. The bullet, fired by Risner or Orrantia, penetrated Platts right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. I generally test new bullets to see how they expand through barriers one is likely to encounter. Past works have been authored to cover only the major talking points in your article, and were forced to do so only as distinctly separate stories due to the sheer volume of information involved; however, you managed to blend the entire history of each topic into one very well written article that is somehow brief, yet able to maintain excellent continuity without missing any of the most important facts. When firing at someone firing back rest assured you want everything to end quick or sooner or later you will catch a round. While the suspect was wearing only a T shirt the round penetrated the sternum and failed to enter into the vital organs. On the more expensive side, the Cor-Bon solid copper DPX in any caliber is a also good self-defense round. In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996). In the end of the nearly five-minute shootout, five FBI agents were wounded and twoJerry Dove and Benjamin Groganwere killed. Below is our list of the top most controversial brands or types of handgun rounds. Additionally, some recommend the Federal HST as a great modern-day equivalent to the Black Talon. Manufacturer. The gun community is all too familiar with the lies and language of fear from the media and anti-gun politicians. Remington will never tell you this, but those in the know say Remingtons Golden Saber has petals designed to expand the same way as Black Talon. The little blue ball keeps the hollow point from clogging, and when it opens its like an itty bitty shotgun shell, full of balls. Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington with folding stock, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Platt then entered the Grogan/Dove car in an apparent attempt to flee the scene. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their .357 Magnum revolvers. Black Talon .40 S&W! - Pistol Ammunition at GunBroker.com : 983449338 Ronald Risner: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 14 rounds fired, S&W Model 60 .38 Special revolver, one round .38 Special +P fired. The Black Talon is a hollowpoint bullet designed to bend upon impact into six ninety-degree angle razor-sharp petals or "talons" that increase the wounding power of the bullet by stretching, cutting and tearing tissue and bone as it travels through the victim. A jury of your peers, and not a knowledgeable jury with respect to ammunition, will hear those words He loaded those Cop Killer Bullets into his gun and just waited for the chance to use them. Your claim of Self-Defense now becomes premeditated murder! For the prestige of having and carrying the bullets that rip apart the insides after passing through a bulletproof vest instead you have become the evil gun owner. Nevertheless, Winchester still buckled to the pressure and in 2000 discontinued the Black Talon, albeit in name only. Right after the "Banning" of Winchester Black Talons-the developer of that bullet changed companies to "Remington". In December, Colin Ferguson killed six people and injured 19 more on a train in New York. *Editors note: The source has chosen to remain anonymousdue to the sensitive nature of their work. Testing out the Winchester Ranger SXT .357 Magnum 180 gr SXT (Black Talon bullet circa 1993) in a 10% Clear Ballistics test in my 4" S&W 686 and 2" Taurus 60. Thankfully, the Tireless Blade trait makes powered sword kills grant you sword ammo. Any idea on value??? The core is made of high-antimony lead making it extremely tough, delivering controlled expansion for unparalleled terminal performance. Or it had been at one time. It does excellent damage and comes with the Crow's Wings perk that launches a Heavy Attack projectile at enemies. I was pretty bad at first, too. A fictionalized version of the Black Talon bullet called the "Black Death" is utilized by Hank Schrader to kill Marco Salamanca in the Breaking Bad episode "One Minute". Winchester pulled it in 1993 and permanently discontinued the ammo in 2000. Glock 26 Hornady Critical Defense / Gold dot 115 gr / Barnes TAC 115 +P Probably. 223 rounds. Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. A strange thing happened when I shot multiple Hornady Critical Duty rounds through ordinary pine lumber 24s, backed by sand/clay. Even if the attacker is only disoriented and not completely down, you have an immediate advantage. Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. I even had one work OK from a 2.5 bbl. Heres why. Introduced at the 1991 SHOT Show, Winchesters Black Talon was the ammo companys answer for a more effective self-defense bullet demanded by the FBI following the 1986 Miami Firefight. Can you guess what it is? Not only does Jihawg guarantee that all of their ammunition meets or exceeds S.A.A.M.I. Platt then apparently positioned the Mini-14 against his shoulder using his uninjured left hand. Officer Heckman does not remember Platt leaving the Grogan/Dove car. When a hollow point bullet hits a soft target, it mushrooms out to what looks like a flower with petals. Effective self-defense requires ammunition that provides consistent expansion, optimum penetration, and superior terminal performance. 10 Great Defense Loads - American Handgunner Everyone there was shooting 9mm or 38 SPL/357 magnums. *Lighting a path to truth* Former Navy JAG Worldwide U.S. Military Defense. Sell your 357 black talon ammo for FREE today on GunsAmerica! Dont use PDX-1 .45ACP in a short barrel! I packed up my gear and left. While standing in the courtroom trying to plead Self-Defense when a sharp anti-gun D.A. In 2009, Winchester-Olin released a new hollow point bullet in its Supreme Elite line of handgun ammunition called the Bonded PDX1. How many times have you heard about the last round youll ever need? Or how about guaranteed stopping power? Its a given that ammunition manufacturers want to make the best, most efficient product possibleand that basically means that the more lethal the round, the better it is. They lack the velocity to do massive tissue damage and make the blood pressure drop fast. Black Talon, a type of expanding, hollow-point ammunition also vilified in the early 1990s as "cop-killer bullets". Hanlon fired at Platt and was shot in the hand while reloading. Ive seen enough well-practiced shooters fail in a simulator to validate this (at least for me). The 230gr JHP manufactured by HOP Munitions results in a slightly slower FPS of 876 FPS but offers a greater downrange energy of 392 ft/lbs. Matix was apparently knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds. We have to portray an image of conscientious awareness to go along with our situational awareness. Despite being riddled with bullet holes from the FBI agents, Platt was able to continue firing back. The fourth hit Matix in the face next to his right eye socket, travelled downward through the facial bones, into the neck, where it entered the spinal column and severed the spinal cord. Your ammo is approx. A word of caution is that while this individual had dropped his weapon a fled a short distance I ordered the poor agonizing suspect hand cuffed. By admin | January 9, 2023 | 32. 1-1 1/2 of penetration the round is usually expanded to about .45+ with jagged petals that cut for about 12. I was honored to meet him 4 more times. Black Talon can comfortably replace Izanagi in Night Falls. Introduced in 2007, the Ranger T Series is still available for purchase today. Following the Long Island Railroad Mass Murder in 1993, Black Talon ammunition attained notoriety in the media and with the anti-gun lobby. [1] [23] Mireles reached the drivers side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. I am currently waiting on the 40 S&W round to come out. (A claim disputed by the FBIs Medical Director, who stated that Grogans vision was not that bad.) An example is a 9mm 50 grain JHP that has a velocity of 2000 Ft per second! Most of the design for the Black Talon was rolled over into the Ranger SXT ammunition, which operates on much the same principle. However, after medical examiners performed autopsies on the bodies, it was discovered that one bullet stopped just less than an inch from the heart. Test results are generally given in terms of expanded diameter, penetration depth, and weight retention. 20rds - 44 Mag Winchester Original Black Talon 250gr. HP Ammo will make the case that you were just looking for a chance to use them! 12 Reasons Why Black Talon Is The BEST Exotic In Season Of The - Reddit Black Talon Ballistic Gel Test ** 45 ACP & 10mm ** The Wound Channel 58.4K subscribers Subscribe 246K views 8 years ago I was fortunate enough to have a viewer send me some Black Talon. Due to all of the controversy, the Black Talon has now become a notorious legend of almost mythical proportions. We reserve the right to edit as appropriate, delete profane, harassing, abusive and spam comments or posts, and block repeat offenders. Even now, people still claim Black Talon was the best defensive round and search for its modern day equivalent.

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black talon ballistics

black talon ballistics