piper cheyenne 400ls problems

Once transition is complete, the basic task of flying is fairly simple so long as you keep everything within the envelope (although many pilots have commented on the pitch sensitivity of the PA-31T even with everything in bounds). They can be awful tempting given the low purchase price, but they are priced that low for a reason. To the pilot, such an airplane will have a normal feel. Click here to view charts for Resale Values, Payload Compared and Prices Compared, Click here to view the Piper PA-31T Cheyenne features guide, Shopping For A Seaplane: Pick A Price Point. Maintenance Steve Magginetti is service coordinator for Corporate Air Technology of San Jose, Cal. If maximum cabin space is an issue, the IIXL is the best bet. I just happened on this article. Technical Data. I do know that when Piper modified the Malibu to make the Meridian, there were substantial changes. 0000144133 00000 n We did a hot section on schedule on the right engine almost four years ago. To me theyre a lot. The PIPER Cheyenne II, manufactured from 1974-1983, requires a 2 person crew and can transport up to 5 passengers. However, the whole family lived up to the Piper reputation of offering a lot of airplane for the money. For a pilot with no turbine experience, the I or IA would be the best choice because it is the least demanding to operate. Frequently it would fail to light up during climbout or at cruising altitudes. Owner is Motivated and will entertain offers. It was costly close to $40,000. 181 0 obj <> endobj The extra power had a destabilizing effect, and the lower weight led to aft-cg problems. company limited itself to producing conservative if not down right View photos, ownership, registration history, and more. Who are you using for service, and are you having trouble getting parts? the company would, completely out of character, do something either launched with a pair of Pratt & Whitney PT6A-41 engines, was supposed to The Cheyenne 400 is that rare exception to the compromises required in Cheyennes used PT6A-28 versions of the turbine engine. The power is reduced if leveling off below 25,000 feet to avoid over-speeding, as well as during descent and landing. It is an aeroplane that dies everything well. It successfully smashed all the records in its class and set overall records to 6,000 and 12,000 meters. Cockpit organization and cockpit lighting also were improved. As a day-to-day business airplane, the 400LS is a fast and quiet airplane with an impressive cabin pressurization differential of 7.6 psi, providing a 10,000-foot cabin at FL410. Cabin seating is commonly arranged in a four-seat club with three additional seats available. More comfortable. It is very difficult to keep the nose wheel off when landing in this condition. As with the Cheyenne I, there is no stability augmentation system. PA-42 may also refer to, "Piper Cheyenne 400LS: Big Dog Turboprop Could Best A Citation I", "Piper Cheyenne 400LS Record Set by Chuck Yeager", "Quick Look: Piper Cheyenne 400LS, Rare hot rod performs more like a jet", "Chuck Yeager - Chasing the Demons for 72 Years", "Piper PA-42 Type Certificate data sheet No. has contracted with Isaacman Associates. Photo date: 2022-04-23. What about putting Cheyenne II engines (PT6-28s) on our Cheyenne I? So the whole package can push $700,000. During certification, longitudinal stability was an issue, and an elaborate "stability augmentation system" (SAS) was installed in the II series.. 0000052341 00000 n My wife tires a bit when I bring up the subject, but she knows that when Im staring out the window and she asks what Im thinking about, the answer is always the same: engines. I currently own a Commander 690 with dash 10 engines, gets me a high cruise of about 290-300 Kts depending on outside temperatures so a nice second place! The Cheyenne IA, a slightly modified version of the Cheyenne I, came along in 1984. Why put that much money into an ancient airframe? 0000014139 00000 n On this particular aircraft, the most stable ILS approaches are flown at 140 knots, in order to keep the phugoid from becoming a problem. 1 answers and 1796 views Feb 23 2020. At the time, Piper Aircraft was improving on its unpressurized and pressurized piston-twin line of the Piper Navajo and Mojave. Other records later set by the 400LS, again piloted by Yeager in 400LS N4118Y (later reregistered as N46HL) for the C-1e Group 2 class, were: Miami-to-Boston, Miami-to-New York City, San Francisco-to-Charleston, West Virginia, San Francisco-to-Cincinnati, San Francisco-to-Los Angeles, New York City-to-Paris, Washington, DC-to-Paris and Gander-Paris. Gear extension speed is 153 KIAS (but Vlo-retract is 139). The PA-31T finally was certified in May 1972. We can fit our family and dog, or two couples, in it and go places in comfort and style. Theres a loophole in the regulations, in that there is no requirement for long-period dynamic longitudinal stability, only one for static stability. What Does a Pilot Require To Remain Current in an Aircraft Requiring a Type Rating? 0000052368 00000 n The PA-42 Cheyenne is a larger development of the earlier PA-31T Cheyennes I and II (which are, in turn, turboprop developments of the PA-31 Navajo). With the I or IA, one gets relative simplicity and ease of operation. It is derived directly from the popular III series but utilizes powerful TPE331 engines with four blade propellers which produce faster airspeeds than its predecessors! Modifications Most modifications to the PA-31T series come under the general headings of upgrade and retrofit. Corrosion of the airframe has been rare, thanks to Piper's use of extensive anti-corrosion treatments and epoxy primers. The rules require that the pull be roughly proportional to the speed displacement; i.e., a 20-knot displacement from trim speed will require twice as much control pressure as a 10-knot deflection. Piper PA-31T Cheyenne - Aviation Consumer AN TOP SPEED IS ;360 KNOTS TOO. The record shows that, when it comes to safely stepping up to turboprops, there is simply no substitute for a regimen of structured recurrent training. Besides, in 10 years of ownership, our potty (I really dont like this term shouldnt we just call it a relief bowl, or something like that?) One of the most annoying features of the Cheyenne was the Janitrol combustion heater which, although thermostatically controlled, was either on or off. ). The aircraft is operated by private individuals, companies and executive charter operators. My first instinct was to check the autopilot wasn't on. Aircraft: Piper PA-42-1000 Cheyenne 400LS. 0000094113 00000 n Piper Cheyenne 400LS PA-42-1000 - GlobalAir.com I flew the 400LS for a spell. Cheyenne 400LS' high-stepping ways. Other factors contributed to this, foremost among them a battle for control of the company that began in 1969 and that was not resolved until 1977 and the flood that devastated the Lock Haven plant. Design work on the Cheyenne began in 1965 as a turboprop-powered version of Pipers Pressurized Navajo. However, the Cheyenne Is changes allowed the airplane to be certified without a stability augmentation system. The yoke will beat your knees purple, especially in any sort of crosswind. Also With This Article Click here to view charts for Resale Values, Payload Compared and Prices Compared. In acknowledgement of the original faults (too powerful engines making the aircraft less stable longitudinally- dont worry Piper had a stability augmentation system fix for this but its important to be aware of in a high angle of attack situation, such as during takeoff or go-around), the I was given less powerful, 500-shp PT6A-11 engines, and the aft CG limit was brought 2 inches forward. The start sequence is fully automated. In general, True! I would have had to maintain it, and I dont enjoy the thought of that. Careless operation has the obvious consequences. So long as the propellers are balanced and the synchrophaser is in good trim (and the pilot knows how to use it correctly), in cruise the interior is quite comfortable. To sweeten the deal, the Cheyenne I was some $100,000 less than the 620-shp model. If the design has died with the old Piper Aircraft Company, That engine runs a little hotter than before the hot section and burns a little more jet-A, but now it matches the left engine more closely. For operators of the PA-31T, pitch instability should not be a concern if the airplane pitch system is modified to the latest specification (including the bobweight), the SAS is maintained properly, weight and balance limitations are observed and current limiting power settings and airspeeds are complied with. Learn how your comment data is processed. All rights reserved. How, she wonders, can you justify a $700,000 investment in a machine that is currently worth about $300,000, even if we had the money? We looked the records for a representative five-year period, during which a total of 187 service difficulty reports (SDRs) were submitted on the PA-31T series, including the PA-31T3/T-1040. PAPI Price Estimate Model Year (as of June 1, 2022): $1,308,533 Performance specifications Horsepower: 2 x 1,000 HP Best Cruise Speed: 334 KIAS Best Range (i): 1,879 NM Fuel Burn: 99.7 GPH Rate of climb: 3,242 FPM Rate of climb (1 engine out): 997 FPM Ceiling: 41,000 FT On the other hand, we were totally unprepared for the $4,000 annunciator-panel repair, the frequent heater and air-conditioner repairs and the little valve that controls the bleed air pressure to the boots and gyros that goes for $6,500 and sits under the floor in the passenger compartment. Piper still stocks a lot of parts, but if a Cheyenne part is unavailable, Piper will still make you one. In ground handling and during cross-wind operations it is especially troublesome, since it fights the desired control inputs. Instead of competing with Cessna by more and further and does it all for about half the cost of a comparable In Sum By the time the program ended, the Piper Cheyenne series offered good all-around performance, good use of interior space and competitive systems. %%EOF Late in 1966 a Navajo was ferried to Edward J. Swearingens facility for installation of a pair of PT6A-6A engines. He replied that there were enough pilots who wanted a hot rod to keep it in business. This airplane is certified in the normal category. be a direct competitor to the staid Beechcraft King Air 200. 0000042996 00000 n Two feet were added forward of the wing leading edge. In that later issue, Kelly discusses a further change to the system Piper made with the 1980 model year: the addition of a bobweight to dampen long-period longitudinal oscillation tendencies. One of the most annoying characteristics of the Cheyenne is caused by the aileron/rudder interconnect. 0 Even at that, parts are an issue for me. Likes: 6. The original system had some problems, but modifications over the years seem to have helped. The 17-foot high tail also makes finding a T-hangar at most GA airports a challenge. 0000186693 00000 n Initial rate of climb was about 6,000 feet per minute at the light weight used for the record flight. And while the first production airplane was completed a year later, the first customer delivery was not made until 1974. The majority of the Cheyenne 400LS aircraft were fitted with nine seats, including a potty seat that can be completely enclosed by an accordion door neatly hidden in its furniture cabinet. The Cheyenne could not compete with Cessna Conquest IIs top speed of 300 KTS, service ceiling of 35,000 feet and higher payload. The Cheyenne I is powered by two Pratt & Whitney PT6A-11 turboprop engines, each rated at 500 horsepower and with a maximum propeller speed of 2200 RPM. 17 0 obj << /Linearized 1 /O 19 /H [ 1122 283 ] /L 38316 /E 23523 /N 5 /T 37858 >> endobj xref 17 36 0000000016 00000 n 0000001067 00000 n 0000001405 00000 n 0000001612 00000 n 0000001748 00000 n 0000002090 00000 n 0000002404 00000 n 0000006240 00000 n 0000006446 00000 n 0000007290 00000 n 0000007475 00000 n 0000007966 00000 n 0000008485 00000 n 0000008975 00000 n 0000009725 00000 n 0000010134 00000 n 0000017979 00000 n 0000018000 00000 n 0000018781 00000 n 0000018802 00000 n 0000019444 00000 n 0000019465 00000 n 0000020118 00000 n 0000020139 00000 n 0000020727 00000 n 0000020748 00000 n 0000021428 00000 n 0000021449 00000 n 0000022091 00000 n 0000022200 00000 n 0000022221 00000 n 0000022916 00000 n 0000022937 00000 n 0000023294 00000 n 0000001122 00000 n 0000001384 00000 n trailer << /Size 53 /Info 16 0 R /Root 18 0 R /Prev 37848 /ID[] >> startxref 0 %%EOF 18 0 obj << /Type /Catalog /Pages 15 0 R >> endobj 51 0 obj << /S 120 /Filter /FlateDecode /Length 52 0 R >> stream This is an invitation to disaster, because it can easily put weight too far aft. In the worst accident in terms of loss of life, seven people were killed when an ATP took off in a IIXL and tried to scud run but hit the side of a mountain. All provide enough options to permit loading (or off-loading, as the case may be) to keep weight and balance within the limits. 0000179961 00000 n Some owners report that the 400LS lacks the build quality compared to a King Air and its rarity can cause head scratches from mechanics who may never have seen one. Best/worst Compared to the mainstay of the turboprop fleet, the King Air series, any of the Cheyenne series is a bargain. The Cheyenne I, with 189 sales formed a solid niche but was no match for the IIs impressive sales record of 343 airplanes. hb``e`R Standard operating procedure The Cheyenne is no slouch in the cruise department, either. A bonus is the fact that it is a beautifully aggressive and unique airplane. The resulting aircraft included the Cheyenne I (500 SHP engine to eliminate the troublesome stick shaker), Cheyenne II (620 SHP PT6s and a stick shaker), Cheyenne IIXL (750 SHP PT6s de-rated to 620 SHP and 18-inch longer fuselage), and Cheyenne III and IIIA (720 SHP PT6A-41s and -61s, nine seats and a T-tail). hbbbd`b``3 0@ Y Two 30 volt, 200 ampere, D.C. starter/generators in parallel provide torque for engine starting and generate D.C. electrical power. Copy & paste the "PA-42 Piper Cheyenne 400LS" folder into your Airplanes folder located by default as below: OS (C)/Program Files(x86)/Microsoft Games/Microsoft Flight Simulator X/SimObjects/Airplanes . Holding the column with my left hand, I tried a gentle turn and was The numbers The PA-31T was produced from 1974 to 1983. A total of 526 aircraft were built. 0000107367 00000 n It uses less runway, climbs and cruises faster than many pure jets. After completing the CAPTCHA below, you will immediately regain access to the site again. Serial #: 42-5527036. I find this overhaul prospect both financially frightening and, in another sense, slightly ironic. of the Cheyenne series, and Piper. The SAS is essentially an addition to the flight controls that is supposed to overcome the poor static stability of the original airplane. Aircraft Location: Stockton, California. In the case of the Meridian and the TBM, the airplanes are still in production, an important consideration when it comes to parts. AGREE! No surprises there. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 0000012075 00000 n [3] Variants[edit] Cheyenne III, model PA-42, equipped with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6-41 engines The Honeywell (Garrett) TPE-331-14 is rated to a maximum of 1,650 shaft horsepower. I know this airplane. 0000081891 00000 n Some owners report that the 400LS lacks the build quality compared to a King Air and its rarity can cause head scratches from mechanics who may never have seen one. Click here to view the Piper PA-31T Cheyenne features guide. Its a pretty unique airplane. It carries more and further and does it all for about half the cost of a comparable bizjet. A friend and I seriously considered a Cheyenne a couple of years ago and I still think a Merlin would be a decent choice for what were doing. If a person wanted to do that in a Cheyenne II, he could simply self-limit the -28 engines to the 500-HP output of the -11. As a result, the aircraft can travel more than 2,000 nm in a long-range cruise. He writes that his facility currently supports about 20 Cheyennes along with a number of other turboprops. 0000082142 00000 n Insulation and trim was changed to increase finished interior dimensions. In ground handling and during cross-wind operations it is especially troublesome, since it fights the desired control inputs. executive turbine fraternity. Pipers Cheyenne 400LS is one of those rare airplanes that has few compromises. They should be in maintenance costs, as well, so long as they are properly operated and maintained. Interior cabin space is a frequent criticism. 0000042546 00000 n Full Reverse allows for landing in shorter distances than even many single and piston twins. But Ill tell you honestly, I still crave that 400LS! Ive known him for several years. The Cheyenne became the Cheyenne II. Pressure differential is 5.5 psi for all three versions. In one of the other forums, someone was asking about classic Lears vs Falcon 10. There is a lot to recommend the single turboprops. That problem is the phugoid stability. By the late 1970s, operators also turned to turboprops for even more efficient engines and better payload and range than most business jets, albeit a slower speed. By early models, we mean the original Cheyenne (later renamed Cheyenne II), the Cheyenne IA, and the stretched Cheyenne IIXL. The Piper 400LS has everything I am looking for. This helps to maintain the engines on an on-condition basis. also included. Yet, in one the airplane was clearly out of weight and balance limits and in the other there is a suspicion that the airplane was improperly loaded. The -31T1 was in production from 1978 to 1984; 215 I and IAs were built. CHEYENNE 400LS SPECIFICATIONS & PERFORMANCE PERFORMANCE STANDARD ATMOSPHERE CONDITIONS CRUISE SPEEDS - TAS TAKE-OFF DISTANCE Mid-Cruise weight (10,000 lbs) Normal procedures at 12,050 lbs (5466 kg) (Maximum cruise power) Lift-off speed (IAS) 107 kts (198 kph) 24,000 ft (7315 m) 351 kts (650 kph) Ground run 1425 ft (434 m) . This is the Best Cheyenne 400LS available. The potential danger is obvious. Although becoming an Earth-rounder has been postponed by the COVID-19 crisis, we are looking forward to completing the mission in a post-pandemic world. thanks again. the only time this limit should be in danger of being exceeded is when the The majority of the Cheyenne 400LS aircraft were fitted with nine seats, including a potty seat that can be completely enclosed by an accordion door neatly hidden in its furniture cabinet. 0000012416 00000 n [3], The 400LS made aviation history on 16 April 1985 by setting two new time-to-climb records for its class (C-1e Group 2, 3000m and 9,000m) and shattering two time-to-climb records for all turboprop classes (6,000m and 12,000m): with retired United States Air Force Brigadier General Chuck Yeager at the helm of N400PS (with co-pilot Renald "Dav" Davenport flying right-seat), the aircraft departed from Portland-Hillsboro Airport's Runway 31L, immediately reached a 5,959-foot-per-minute climbout and achieved its 3,000m record in 1 minute, 47.6 seconds; the 6,000m record in 3 minutes, 42.0 seconds; its 9,000m record at 6 minutes, 34.6 seconds; the 12,000m record at 11 minutes, 8.3 seconds (time-to-altitude records were captured by on-board video camera aimed at relevant panel gauges, timed with superimposed timer; also verified by Hillsboro Airport tower personnel via radar, using encoded altimeter data transmitted from aircraft to tower via transponder). None of these occurrences was surprising. Dick Karl is a cancer surgeon who appreciates the beauty and science involved in both surgery and flying. Flew one of these from Seoul, South Korea to the US (via Eastern Russia). This is the only COMPLETE (RVSM,FULL PAID MSP) AVAILABLE! As to the latter, the bluebook says $120,000 to $160,000 per side, and thats a lot, but Ive heard horror stories some apocryphal suggesting that once the engine is opened, it is not uncommon to hear that the price has escalated. Quick Look: Piper Cheyenne 400LS - AOPA Quick Look: Piper Cheyenne 400LS - AOPA Engine limiters take care of torque and temperatures with minor pilot input, if any. About that SAS As noted above, Pipers artificial and marginal fix to the longitudinal instability of the original Cheyenne turned into a blot on the entire series. All Cheyenne 400LS Aircraft Now Have Available RVSM Solutions What is the max speed with the larger engines and range. Full flap speed is 148. Icing conditions existed. 0000005155 00000 n company on the then new Citation. A week or so after flying this I flew a Kingair200 thought on initial T/O that there was something wrong as acceleration was so slow compared to the 400LS. Gear and flap speeds are sufficiently high to fit in to a wide range of traffic situations. Swearingen to develop the Twin Comanche. Its maximum speed at optimum altitude is advertised as 283 KTAS, and it has range-verses-payload numbers very comparable to the King Airs. Environmental systems, including the cabin blower, heater and air conditioning, fuel systems-including fuel line chafing, landing gear and horizontal stabilizer/elevator were the elements causing the most frequent reports. Apart from the inevitable abrasion However, there have been a number of elevator spar problems attributed to dissimilar metals (aluminum and steel). When the IIXL was announced, Thomas Gillespie, then Pipers head of marketing, was asked if production of the II was going to end. This listing was posted on Jul 15, 2019. Ive also had correspondence with Ed Black of Blackhawk. I just saw a perfectly flyable Beechjet get parted out because the cost of the upcoming service interval essentially totaled the aircraft. Significant improvements were made throughout the product line in terms of maintainability, rational human factors-oriented redesign and in overall quality. Price: USD $1,300,000. Registration #: N142LS. The longitudinal stability characteristics and the SAS were fully covered in the November 1, 1981 issue of The Aviation Consumer. Perhaps this is because we came out of a 602P Aerostar with a multiplicity of problems and had experienced every in-flight emergency possible with it. bizjet. [3], Due to its top speed over 400 mph, it was renamed the Cheyenne 400LS when Lear Siegler owned Piper, then the Cheyenne 400. When you think about it, how can I justify taking the chance of just overhauling our own engines? I remember reading a Richard Collins column years ago in which he described the number of yellow legal pads he used up while deciding on the Cessna P210 he ultimately bought and flew for 8,000 hours. Uploaded: 2022-07-05. The 106in (2.7m) Dowty Rotol propellers had four round-tip composite blades and 8in (20cm) of ground clearance. What is the maintenance cost on the Cheyenne? Feature, October 2020 Issue The electric aux heat works fine, but cant be used if the de-ice equipment is on, because of the electrical overload. aircraft design. It is faster, but the range is much less (most experts say), an important factor to us; we live in Tampa and have family in Delaware and Boston and a pied--terre in New England. But good looks, affordability, and ease of maintenance are just as important. The T-tail towers over the package to balance out the huge props. Some changes, such as a retrofit that reduces temperatures during engine start-named (surprise) the Cool Start Kit-and procedures such as regular compressor washes can have benefits beyond making it to recommended hot section inspection (HSI) and TBO (3,500 hours for all three models). The confusion started when Piper introduced a lower powered, lower cost turboprop and called it the Cheyenne I (PA-31T1). Our problem is that the right engine from day one has periodically and suddenly lost two or three quarts of oil. ground clearance of a meagre eight inches. My retirement account is a shadow of its former self. Studying the Pilot's manual In 1978, Piper came out with another version of the Cheyenne, the Cheyenne I.

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piper cheyenne 400ls problems

piper cheyenne 400ls problems